Were the Albigensians Christians?

As a Protestant and a Baptist, I believe that the church has always existed from the time of Jesus until now. There have always been true believers in Jesus and the church cannot cease to exist (Matt 16:18). One of the ways that Baptists have tried to demonstrate this is through what is known as the trail of blood. It is sometimes argued that there is a trail of blood running through church history where the official state church of the day persecuted the true church made up of Baptists who have always existed throughout history. This state church that was supported by the power of the government eventually became the modern Roman Catholic Church. While this narrative about the trail of blood appears attractive, many of the groups who are included in it had serious theological problems.

One of these groups are the Albigensians who were a subgroup of a larger religious movement known as the Cathars. The term “Cathar” describes one who is pure or holy and they believed that they were holy in God’s sight in comparison to the corrupt church of their day. The term “Albigensian” describes the Cathars who lived in southern France in the region of Albi.

The Cathars were persecuted relentlessly by the Catholic Church through the Albigensian Crusade. If you have ever heard of the phrase, “Let God sort them out,” that expression came from this crusade during the attack on the town of Beziers, which was composed of both Cathars and Catholics, and thousands of its citizens were indiscriminately put to the sword.

But were the Albigensians actually heretics or faithful Christians? As I will demonstrate here from their own writings, they did hold to heretical beliefs that distorted who God is and rejected the teachings of the Bible. As my Baptist History professor once said about the trail of blood, “You have to be a Christian first before you can be a Baptist.”

We will look first at what their persecutors said about them and then what they said about themselves. Many medieval writers describe their beliefs. One of them was Raynaldus who was an Italian historian living during the seventeenth century. S. R. Maitland translates a portion of his “Annales” about them in his work History of the Albigenses and Waldenses.

Raynaldus made some incredible claims about their beliefs:

“First it is to be known that the heretics held that there are two Creators; viz. one of invisible things, whom they called the benevolent God, and another of visible things, whom they named the malevolent God. The New Testament they attributed to the benevolent God; but the Old Testament to the malevolent God, and rejected it altogether, except certain authorities which are inserted in the New Testament from the Old” (As cited by S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses, p. 392).

If Raynaldus is correct in his assessment of their beliefs, then the Albigensians were Marcionites in their beliefs about God. Marcionism is the false teaching that the God of the New Testament is different from the God of the Old Testament whom they viewed as evil. This is a form of polytheism in contrast to biblical monotheism and it denies that God is the creator of all things. He claims that they held to a docetist understanding of Christ which denies that he was truly human:

“They said also, in their secret doctrine, (in secreto suo) that that Christ who was born in the visible, and terrestrial Bethlehem, and crucified in Jerusalem, was a bad man, and that Mary Magdalene was his concubine; and that she was the woman taken in adultery, of whom we read in the gospel. For the good Christ, as they said, never ate, nor drank, nor took upon him true flesh, nor ever was in this world, except spiritually in the body of Paul” (As cited by S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses, p. 392-393).

They demanded celibacy from their followers and denied the future resurrection of the dead:

“Confirmation and Confession, they considered as altogether vain and frivolous. They preached that Holy Matrimony was meretricious, and that none could be saved in it, if they should beget children. Denying also the Resurrection of the flesh, they invented some unheard of notions, saying, that our souls are those of angelic spirits who, being cast down from heaven by the apostacy of pride, left their glorified bodies in the air; and that these souls themselves, after successively inhabiting seven terrene bodies, of one sort or another, having at length fulfilled their penance, return to those deserted bodies” (As cited by S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses, p. 393-394).

They abstained from the eating of meat, eggs, and cheese:

“It is also to be known that some among the heretics were called ‘perfect’ or ‘good men;’ others ‘believers’ of the heretics. Those who were called perfect, wore a black dress, falsely pretended to chastity, abhorred the eating of flesh, eggs and cheese, wished to appear not liars, when they were continually telling lies, chiefly respecting God. They said also that they ought not on any account to swear” (As cited by S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses, p. 394).

Another Catholic source about the Albigensians is from Bernard Gui who was tasked with interrogating them to find out what they believed. Gui worked in the city of Toulouse, where many Albigensians had their home, from 1307-1323. We have access to his inquisitor’s manual which shows us how they attacked the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church:

“It would take too long to describe in detail the manner in which these same Manichaean heretics preach and teach their followers, but it must be briefly considered here. In the first place, they usually say of themselves that they are good Christians, who do not swear, or lie, or speak evil of others; that they do not kill any man or animal, nor anything having the breath of life, and that they hold the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ and his gospel as the apostles taught. They assert that they occupy the place of the apostles, and that, on account of the above-mentioned things, they of the Roman Church, namely the prelates, clerks, and monks, and especially the inquisitors of heresy persecute them and call them heretics, although they are good men and good Christians, and that they are persecuted just as Christ and his apostles were by the Pharisees. Moreover they talk to the laity of the evil lives of the clerks and prelates of the Roman Church, pointing out and setting forth their pride, cupidity, avarice, and uncleanness of life, and such other evils as they know. They invoke with their own interpretation and according to their abilities the authority of the Gospels and the Epistles against the condition of the prelates, churchmen, and monks, whom they call Pharisees and false prophets. Then they attack and vituperate, in turn, all the sacraments of the Church, especially the sacrament of the eucharist, saying that it cannot contain the body of Christ. . . . Of baptism, they assert that the water is material and corruptible and is therefore the creation of the evil power, and cannot sanctify the soul, but that the churchmen sell this water out of avarice, just as they sell earth for the burial of the dead, and oil to the sick when they anoint them, and as: they sell the confession of sins as made to the priests. . . . They assert, moreover, that the cross of Christ should not be adored or venerated, because, as they urge, no one would venerate or adore the gallows upon which a father, relative, or friend had been hung. . . . Moreover they read from the Gospels and the Epistles in the vulgar tongue, applying and expounding them in their favor and against the condition of the Roman Church in a manner which it would take too long to describe in detail” (As cited by J. H. Robinson, Readings in European History, p. 381-383).

The Albigensians criticized many of the unbiblical practices that were present in the Roman Catholic Church and they used their criticism of the church to draw followers to themselves. They read the Bible to people in their own language which was attractive to those who were seeking after the truth in God’s Word.

At the Council of Lombers in 1165, some Cathars who lived near Albi, France were publicly interrogated about their beliefs. According to them, they rejected the Old Testament as Scripture:

“The Bishop of Lodeve, by command of the Bishop of Albi, and of his assessors, asked those who caused themselves to be called ‘good men’ — ‘I. If they received the law of Moses, and the Prophets, or the Psalms, and the Old Testament, and the doctors of the New Testament. They answered before all the multitude, that they did not receive the law of Moses, nor the Prophets, nor the Psalms, nor the Old Testament; but only the Gospels, the Epistles of Paul, and the seven canonical Epistles, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Apocalypse'” (As cited by S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses, p. 140).

Peter Chrysogonus in 1178 describes an incident where some Cathars in Toulouse, France were put on trial for their false beliefs and he tells us about the accusations that eyewitnesses to their preaching charged against them:

“For some constantly declared, that they had heard from some of them, that there were two Gods, one good and the other evil—that, the good one, had made only the things invisible, and such as were not changeable, or corruptible; the evil one, had made heaven and earth, mankind, and all visible things” (As cited by S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses, p. 165).

The Cistercian monk Peter of Vaux-de-Cernay accompanied the Albigensian crusaders on their missions and he wrote a book about his experiences called Hystoria albigensis which gives us a first-hand account of what he believed about the Albigensians:

“In the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and to His Glory and Honor, Here Begins the History of the Albigenses. – In the province of Narbonne, where once the faith had flourished, the enemy of the faith began to oversow cockle. . . . Since this seems an appropriate place, I think it worthwhile to describe with clarity and brevity the heresies and sects of heretics. It should first be understood that the heretics postulated two creators, to wit, one of the invisible world, whom they called the benign God, and one of the visible world, or the malign god. They ascribed the New Testament to the benign God, the Old Testament to the malign one; the latter book they wholly rejected. . . . There were other heretics, who said that there is but one Creator, who had two sons, Christ and the devil” (As cited by Walter L. Wakefield and Austin P. Evans, Heresies of the High Middle Ages, p. 236-238).

We also have the records from the inquisition in Toulouse, France which tell us about the beliefs of those who were sentenced. Here is the sentence against Peter Auterius who was a leader of the Cathars. He is accused of both dualism and docetism:

“Peter Auterius, as a notorious heretic, for many years past have held and kept, and now hold, and profess yourself to hold, the way of life, sect, rites and faith (or rather perfidy) of those men who assert that they alone are good christians whom the most Holy Roman Church persecutes, and condemns, and calls perfecti, or consolati (more properly desolati) heretics—you who maintain, assert, and confess two Gods and Lords—that is to say a benevolent, and a malignant being; affirming that the creation of all visible and material things, was not the work of God, the Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, but of the Devil, and Satan, the evil deity whom you call the God of this world (seculi) the Creator and Prince of this world (mundi). . . . The Incarnation also of our Lord Jesus Christ, of Mary ever Virgin, although you may nominally profess it in outward appearance, you do, as to the truth of the thing, blaspheme with impious lips, when you deny that he assumed a true human body, and true flesh of man of our nature; and assert, and falsely state, that he did not truly, but only in appearance, arise therein, and perform the other works of our salvation; and did not therewith ascend to the right hand of the Father, and that the holy Mary, mother of God, and our Lord Jesus Christ, is not and was not a real woman. . . . The resurrection of human bodies also you entirely deny; fancying some spiritual bodies. . . . These and other errors and horrors, as abominable as they are wicked, you Peter Auterius heretically profess, as we have heard with horror from your own mouth; and many other persons have oftentimes heard from you the aforesaid errors; nor are you willing to depart from those errors, nor to abandon them. . . . This sentence was delivered at the Sermo of the Inquisitor, publicly held in the Church of St. Stephen at Thoulouse, on the Thursday before Palm Sunday; namely, the ninth of April in the year of our Lord 1310″ (Sentence on Peter Auterius by Bernard Guido and Brother Geoffry de Ablusiis of the Dominican order. As cited by S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses, p. 271-274).

The most important witness I have found to what the Cathars believed comes from Reinerius Saccho who was a Cathar himself for 17 years before converting to Catholicism and becoming an inquisitor:

“The sect of the Cathari is divided into three parts, or principal divisions (sectas principales); of which the first are called Albanenses, the second Concorezenses, the third Bagnolenses, and these are all in Lombardy. The other Cathari, however, whether in Tuscany, the Marquisate [of Trevisano], or in Provence, do not differ in their opinions from the said Cathari, or some of them. For all these Cathari have some common opinions in which they agree, and there are some peculiar opinions in which they disagree. The common opinions of all the Cathari are these—namely, that the Devil made the world, and all things in it. Also, that all the Sacraments of the church—namely, the sacrament of Baptism of material water, and the other sacraments, are not profitable to salvation, and that they are not the true sacraments of Christ, and of his church; but delusive, and diabolical, and of the church of the malignants. Also, it is a common opinion of all the Cathari, that carnal marriage is always a mortal sin, and that the future punishment of adultery, and incest, will not be greater than that of lawful matrimony; nor would any one among them be more severely punished. Also, all the Cathari deny that there will be a resurrection of the flesh. Also, they believe, that it is a mortal sin to eat flesh, or eggs, or cheese, even in case of urgent necessity” (The testimony of Reinerius Saccho concerning the heretics. As cited by S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses, p. 418-419).

However, the testimony of Catholics is not all that we have. Far more valuable are their own writings for discerning the truth of whether they were genuine Christians or the heretics that their persecutors claimed they were.

We have access to a work called The Book of the Two Principles which is the largest text that defends Cathar beliefs and was written sometime around the early thirteenth century.

The scholars Walter L. Wakefield and Austin P. Evans describe the work this way:

“The author accounts for the existence of evil amidst good by asserting that there is an absolute duality of gods, creators, and creations – an absolute opposition of good to evil – and by denying the existence of free will among the creatures of good. On those who fail to recognize these ‘truths’ he turns his polemic, principally against the sect of Garatenses, who held to a modified dualism, but also against Catholics. . . . But there must be another creator from whom all evils flow, who in no way derives from the good God. The evil one is eternal, as are his works. . . . The Garatenses believe that there is one God, creator of all, but an evil lord, God’s creature, made this world. . . . If they believe that a good God created all things, why do they spurn the meat, eggs, and cheese of His creation and why do they avoid matrimony?” (Heresies of the High Middle Ages, p. 511, 514-515).

The author argues that God is not the only sole principle, but there is another principle besides God who is evil who created the visible world:

“Hence, it follows that there is another principle, one of evil, who is the source and cause of all wickedness, foulness, and unbelief, as also of all darkness. For otherwise, the true God himself, who is most faithful, and the height of justice, the essence of purity, would be entirely the cause and origin of all evil. All opposites and contraries would emanate entirely from the Lord himself. To suppose this is a most foolish fancy.”

“That there is, in addition to the faithful Creator to whom they that suffer ‘commended their souls in good deeds,’ another god and lord who is a creator and maker, I propose to prove clearly from the Scriptures.”

“Nowif anyone should be so foolish as to spurn the most valid arguments set forth above, let him fully realize that through the evidence of the Holy Scriptures it may clearly be learned that there is another god, a lord and prince other than the true Lord God. . . . So it is clearly seen that through the evidence of the Holy Scriptures many gods, lords, and princes in enmity to the true Lord God and His son Jesus Christ can manifestly be discovered, as has just been plainly set forth”

“Now it must be kept in mind that no one can point to the temporal and visible existence of the evil god in this world, nor, indeed, to that of the good God. But a cause is known by its effects. From this, it should be understood that no one can prove him to be an evil god or a creator, except by the fact of his evil works or his fickle words. But I say that he who created and made the visible things of this world is not the true Creator.”

This teaching is no different from that of the heretic Marcion who taught that the God of the New Testament is different from the God of the Old Testament. He accused the God of the Old Testament of being evil:

“We can, moreover, clearly prove through the Old Testament, if we accept the belief of our opponents, that the aforesaid lord and creator caused the goods of others to be plundered by force and caused the actual theft—under the guise of a loan—of the wealth of the Egyptians and even caused most bloody murders. . . . Therefore, it is evident that the Father of Jesus Christ did not cause the manifest destruction of so many men and women with all their children in this temporal world.”

“Whence, in the opinion of the wise, it is not at all to be believed that the Most Benevolent God, entirely of himself and not at all under the influence of His enemy, cursed His son Jesus Christ—or, rather, cursed himself, if it is true that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, as the uninformed say. But there is indubitably an evil creator, who is the source and cause of the malediction on Jesus Christ as, indeed, he is of all evil.”

“Therefore, the wise may read [the Scriptures] and believe without doubt that there is an evil god, lord and creator; he is the source and cause of all the evils referred to above. Otherwise, one would be led of necessity to confess that the true God himself, who is shining and good, holy, the living fountain and source of all sweetness, delight, and justice, was directly the cause and origin of all evil, wickedness, bitterness, and injustice. All opposites and contraries would flow forth entirely from the Lord himself. In the opinion of the wise, such a supposition is a most foolish fancy.”

In his work, he responds to objections to his beliefs and gives us a clue as to whom he represents:

“I have decided to write a further rebuttal of the Garatenses, who often have repeated a boasting challenge to us by saying: You Albanenses cannot prove by evidence from the Holy Scriptures that an evil god is the creator of heaven and earth and all other visible things, which repeatedly you proclaim him to be. I am led to reply briefly to them.”

The author identifies himself as a member of the “Albanenses” which is a Cathar sect that existed in Italy, not to be confused with the Albigensians of southern France. He elsewhere identifies his beliefs as the beliefs of the Albanenses:

“Nor could the Lord himself despoil and bring to nought any power other than His own, if no other power whatsoever is to be found, as say all the opponents of those true Christians who are rightly known by the name of Albanenses.”

There is also a document called The Book of the Secret Supper which is a Cathar text that claims to be from the Apostle John. It is also known as The Book of John the Evangelist or The Questions of John. The following quotes come from the translation of the work by Wakefield and Evans in their book Heresies of the High Middle Ages.

This work promotes what we know today as the serpent seed doctrine that originated with Gnostics like Valentinus which says that Satan had sexual relations with Eve in the Garden of Eden:

“‘Thereafter the wicked devil, entering into the evil serpent, deceived the angel who was in the form of a woman and poured out upon her head a longing for sin,’ and Eve’s desire was like a glowing oven. Forthwith, the devil in the form of the serpent came out of the reeds and sated his lust on her with the serpent’s tail. That is why [the offspring] are called not sons of God but sons of the devil and sons of the serpent, fulfilling the diabolic desires of their father even unto the end of the world. After this, the devil poured out his longing upon the head of the angel who was in Adam; and [both angels] were affected by a lust for debauchery, together begetting children of the devil and of the serpent, until the consummation of the world.”

It teaches as well that Adam and Eve were angels rather than true human beings. This is parallel to what Raynaldus said earlier about them: “They invented some unheard of notions, saying, that our souls are those of angelic spirits who, being cast down from heaven by the apostacy of pride, left their glorified bodies in the air.”

M.R. James, in his book The Apocryphal New Testament, also gives a translation of this text under the title The Book of John the Evangelist. This is his translation of the passage:

“And he [the devil] devised furthermore and made man in his likeness, and commanded the (or an) angel of the third heaven to enter into the body of clay. And he took thereof and made another body in the form of a woman, and commanded the (or an) angel of the second heaven to enter into the body of the woman. But the angel lamented when they beheld a mortal shape upon them and that they were unlike in shape. And he commanded them to do the deed of the flesh in the bodies of clay, and they knew not how to commit sin. Then did the contriver of evil devise in his mind to make paradise, and he brought the man and woman into it. And he commanded to bring a reed, and the devil planted it in the midst of paradise, and so did the wicked devil hide his device that they knew not his deceit. And he came in and spake unto them, saying: Of every fruit which is in paradise eat ye, but of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil eat not. Notwithstanding, the devil entered into a wicked serpent and seduced the angel that was in the form of the woman, and he wrought his lust with Eve in the Song of the serpent. And therefore are they called sons of the devil and sons of the serpent that do the lust of the devil their father, even unto the end of this world. And again the devil poured out upon the angel that was in Adam the poison of his lust, and it begetteth the sons of the serpent and the sons of the devil even unto the end of this world.”

The work identifies the devil as the God of the Old Testament and it rejects the authority of the Book of Genesis. According to the translation of Wakefield and Evans:

“After that I, John, questioned the Lord, saying, ‘Why do men say that Adam and Eve were made by God and placed in Paradise to keep His commandments, and that for transgression of the Father’s commandment they were delivered up unto death?’ The Lord said unto me: ‘Hear, John, most beloved. Men are foolish who speak thus, for my Father did not, in transgression (in praevaricatione) of His own law, shape bodies of clay, but by the Holy Spirit made [only] all the virtues of heaven. These, however, for their sins and by their fall are found possessing bodies of clay and are delivered up to death.’”

The author claims that Satan sent John the Baptist rather than God:

“When my Father thought to send me to this earth, He sent before me His angel, she who is called Mary, my mother, that she might receive me through the Holy Spirit. And when I descended, I entered and came forth through her ear. Now Satan, the prince of this world, knew that I was come to seek and ‘to save that which was lost’; and he sent his angel, the prophet Elijah, who baptized in water and was called John the Baptist.’ Now, Elijah asked the prince of this world how he might recognize me. And the devil said to him, ‘Upon Whom thou shalt see the Holy Spirit descending as a dove, and remaining upon Him, He it is that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit and with fire.’”

The text forbids marriage and sexual relations in marriage:

“‘The followers of John marry and are given in marriage, whereas my disciples marry not at all but remain as the angels of God in the heavenly kingdom.’ Then I said to Him, ‘If it is a sin to have knowledge of women, is it then unwise to marry?’ And the Lord replied: ‘All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who were born so from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made so by men; and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.’”

It also teaches a form of universalism where the fallen angels will eventually be restored to fellowship with God:

“Others shall witness the final division and ‘the wicked shall be turned into hell.’ By the indulgence of my Father the unbelieving spirits shall at length withdraw from prison; ‘they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.’”

We also have the conversion oath that the Cathars had to swear in order to join their movement. Here is one paragraph from it:

“Do you promise that henceforth you will eat neither meat nor eggs, nor cheese, nor fat, and that you live only from water and wood (i.e. vegetables and fish), that you will not lie, that you will not swear, that you will not kill, that you will not abandon your body to any form of luxury, that you will never go alone when it is possible to have a companion, that you will never sleep without breeches and shirt and that you will never abandon your faith for fear of water, fire or any other manner of death?”

Their statement that “henceforth you will eat neither meat nor eggs, nor cheese” is parallel to the testimony of Raynaldus that they “abhorred the eating of flesh, eggs and cheese.” This conversion oath serves as evidence that helps to confirm the trustworthiness of his testimony about Cathar beliefs. The statement “that you will never sleep without breeches and shirt” is meant to reinforce the complete celibacy of their movement and reflects the other texts we have seen about forbidding sexual relations in marriage.

The Albigensians and the rest of the Cathars added their own made-made traditions and beliefs to God’s Word. They rejected the God of the Old Testament who created all things in favor of a form of Marcionism. While they criticized Roman Catholicism for many of their false beliefs, the beliefs they held to were even worse.

I would be in agreement with S. R. Maitland in his conclusion to his work on the subject:

“Unless we wholly reject the testimonies adduced, especially those extracted from the Book of Sentences, we must admit that some of the doctrines and rites of the Albigenses, were as contrary to the word of God as the worst superstitions of Popery; and shall feel some little sorrow, if not disgust, at hearing those who held and practised them, set forth as the salt of the earth, the holy martyrs of Christ” (Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses, p. 451).

We do not need the Albigensians to create a trail of blood. The Henricians and Waldensians did not hold to the false beliefs of the Albigensians and they were true forerunners of the Reformation.

4 thoughts on “Were the Albigensians Christians?

  1. “We have access to a work called The Book of the Two Principles which is the largest text that defends Cathar beliefs and was written sometime around the early thirteenth century. [..] Their statement that “henceforth you will eat neither meat nor eggs, nor cheese” is parallel to the testimony of Raynaldus that they “abhorred the eating of flesh, eggs and cheese.””

    I admit to being utterly perplexed. Have you read the Book of the Two Principles? Therein the Albigensian author states:

    “Why do you [Garatenses] not eat the meat, the eggs, and the cheese which are from your Creator, most good? [..] Why, then, do they [the Garatenses] reject meat, eggs, and cheese, made from the most holy elements, if that corruption or formation which was accomplished by the devil in the beginning was good and holy? Hence, whoever may say this is admirably refuted.”

    Indeed, the author of that work continues:

    “It is not surprising that the Romans constantly cite against you [Garatenses] the text of the Blessed Paul, who says to Timothy: “Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared, forbidding to marry, [enjoining] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be rejected.””

    Is it your claim that the Albigensians were refusing to eat meat, eggs, and cheese while simultaneously mocking those who rejected meat, eggs, and cheese by citing scripture which says that abstaining from meat which God created is a spirit of error and doctrine of devils in the last times?

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    1. You are perplexed because you have either misrepresented or misunderstood what I was saying. The quotation, “henceforth you will eat neither meat nor eggs, nor cheese” is not a quotation from the Book of the Two Principles but from a Cathar conversion oath I linked to. But you placed an ellipsis between my words about the Book of the Two Principles and the statement about not eating meat or eggs to make it appear that I was saying that the Book of the Two Principles was saying that rather than the conversion oath.

      The author of the Two Principles is using a “reductio ad absurdum” argument since both groups did abstain from meat, eggs, and cheese but the author is arguing that the Garatenses did so inconsistently.

      As Wakefield and Evans explain:

      “The Garatenses believe that there is one God, creator of all, but an evil lord, God’s creature, made this world. . . . If they believe that a good God created all things, why do they spurn the meat, eggs, and cheese of His creation and why do they avoid matrimony?” (Heresies of the High Middle Ages, p. 515).

      The quotations in it about the Garatenses demonstrates that there was diversity within the Cathar movement. But they were both dualists:

      “At first all Cathari in Italy were subject to Bishop Mark, who professed the moderate dualism of the Catharist church of Bulgaria. The arrival of Nicetas, Catharist bishop of Constantinople and an absolute dualist, in Italy soon after 1174, led Mark to transfer to the order of Dragovitsa, which Nicetas represented. Under Mark’s successor, John the Jew, the Cathari divided into separate groups. The first was composed of the partisans of absolute dualism, called Albanenses, organizing themselves in the church of Desenzano, south of Lake Garda. They were particularly numerous in Verona. Those who remained faithful to the moderate Bulgarian dualism, the Garatenses, constituted the church of Concorezzo, near Milan. Moderate dualists also came together around the church of Bagnolo, near Mantua, adhering to the order of Esclavonia. Like these, the Catharist churches of Vicenza, Florence and Spoleto rejected absolute dualism.”

      https://www.encyclopedia.com/philosophy-and-religion/christianity/christianity-general/cathars

      The Garatenses are “a school of Cathar believers founded by Bishop Garatus in Concoresso (In modern Italy). This is the term used in the famous Liber de Duobus Principiis.”

      https://www.cathar.info/cathar_terminology.htm

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